Here is some great info from NetRat reagrding if the Lions were to trade Roy. Saves 1.642 million in cap, BUT -- don't forget, the Lions would be getting at least a first in return, right? The initial salary of that player would wipe out the savings and more, plus:
"NetRat, 4/20/08
Get this, the salary cap hit next year for a first round draft pick this year would be about the same as the Franchise tag for Roy. No savings there either. "
This is just one more thing the Lions are looking at when it comes to trading Roy. Which would you rather have, if the cost is the same: A Pro-Bowl WR or a first round draft pick? (made by the Detroit Lions.)
The question is close to rhetorical, but please feel free to respond still anyways. LOL --
Don't forget to read the other two posts I put on this weekend, plus all the grat comments on that last 3 or 4. Likely nothing more out of me until Monday...which is only what, half an hour away? Wow. Tomorrow then!
17 comments:
It is my opinion that on the offense, the wide receiver position handles the ball or is less involved PER PLAY, than any other position. The best receivers catch 10 balls in a good game. They are not on the line to block. The linemen are involved in every play, run or pass. Same with the QB. The backs handled the ball more maybe 25 times on a good day. They also block often.
Therefore, if we have other wide receivers who have done good or are expected to be good, shore up a weak position by a WR trade.
You will still have a good receiving corps, but can improve another weak position.
Just my thoughts. Oh yeah, the guy you trade seems to have said he would like to finish his career playing in front of his hometown fans. Plus he is going to demand a large salary where we have too much money tied up already. If you wait till next year, he might be hurt all year and you get nothing if you trade him then, or sign him and he never recovers fully.
hollyweed88
hollyweed
Roy has never said publicly he wants to "finish his career playing in front of his hometown fans". This is your opinion. Roy Williams has said (publicly) he wants to be a Lion for Life.
Second; don't cast the negative cloud without the positive cloud.
Roy Williams may be a great mentor and we may see he and CJ have banner Pro Bowl years with both catching 85 passes for 1,200 yards a piece as the Lions dismantle a league on their way to an NFC and Super Bowl Championship.
You don't know, I don't know.
Now, I woud agree completely that if Dallas (or Phily) want to go nuts, we would have to entertain offers for Roy (or anyone else) in trade talks. But to say trade Roy because he "may" get hurt makes no sense. To get rid of Roy because "we think he wants to go to Dallas" is contradictory to anything out there.
The Lions have Roy Williams in THEIR FOLD for TWO years if they want to franchise him and pay him. If they (the Lions) don't want Roy around after this year, they can part ways (and lose any trade). Or they can tender (franchise) him, then trade him.
I was under the assumption the Lions were going to go with a pounder-type back. (I still think they are).
But if they cut Kevin Jones because he isn't ready to practice now, and they want someone in their now to help learn the new offensive running plays, how does drafting Stewart make this easier. Stweart is a pounder. He would be "that guy". "That guy" who is laid up until camp after toe surgery.
Which makes no sense with the before mentioned logic, or makes it a lie and they cut Kevin Jones because he was injury prone and they needed to clear some cap numbers.
Harvey still gets big $$$ at #15; a linebacker doesn't get as much at #15. I think they go LB or DT.
nobsnubber
My comments were to give reasons to trade now. Therefore, for me to give a positive spin would be foolish, wouldn't you agree? A positive spin would be the reason NOT to do what I wish them to do.
I would like an OT for Williams. Obviously that was not made clear. It can be an equally talented player as Roy or a high draft pick OT.
Then, concentrate on the defense in the draft, as you have stated.
This is what I read that made me feel he may want to play for his hometown.
W 4/9/2008
A source close to Williams said he wants to play for the Cowboys if he isn't in Detroit.
A politically correct Williams wouldn't go that far, saying, "Man, you know I can't answer that question."
When asked if he grew up a fan of the Cowboys in Odessa, he quipped, "Of course, I'm from Texas."
Williams said he wouldn't have a problem playing with Owens or same-name safety Roy Williams.
"I could see myself playing with anybody," Williams said. "Everybody talks about T.O. All T.O. wants to do is win. If he don't get any balls and you win, you won't hear nothing from him. But if you don't win, you are going to hear from him, but that goes with any big-time receiver. You want to help your team win. If you don't, you are going to be [upset]. And with Roy, at least I don't have to worry about that hit. They have a good football team."
Williams reiterated that his goal is to stay in Detroit, but admitted that he is somewhat frustrated about his uncertain future there.
"The only thing I can do is play ball," Williams said. "It's a little disappointing. That's the nature of this business. Whatever they do with me, they do with me."
ONLINE: dallascowboys.com
chill@star-telegram.com
Clarence E. Hill Jr., 817-390-7760
hollyweed88
Wow - I was just trying to lay out one more thing that has to be considered when trading a player (any player, really) - One late round pick will not have a Roy-cost signing bonus, but if you get a proven player and/or a first, or a couple of firsts more likely needed, I just thought that keeping in mind a net salary gain for Roy (about which I was incorrect earlier, and wanted to point out) would be offset by the salaries of those coming in via the trade -- Really, it is just another consideration to keep in mind when reading all the "trade Roy" scenarios that are out there.
I'm sure I've written before (but don't have time to look up) that the Lions are actually in the driver's seat in a good position on this one since they get his contract year play, and if he is awful or gets hurt, the price of re-signing him goes way down (I don't think awful will happen unless he does get hurt). If he has a stellar year, then they can either sign him to a new long-term deal with the cap space they will have next year, OR they can franchise him and get excellent trade value should they choose not to keep him. They could even let another team work out the contract and match if they felt like it.
I'm sure there are a lot of different opinions out there as to what is value for Roy? But they have 2 "big" guys, 2 slot guys, and no need to have millen draft a WR in the first. All great things for the team!
Curious to see what everyone else thinks is "value" for Roy -- a lot of drivel trades I've seen talk about the "money saved" as a big reason to trade him -- this makes clear it is not money saved, but money spent to stregthen another part of the team, by weakening WR.
Indy has been lucky, St. Louis was lucky for a long time, Dallas is still looking for a 2nd WR to pair with TO, Philly hasn't had one great WR for most of the decade, much less 2.
I'm not against them having good money tied up in a pro-bowl and potential pro-bowl WRs they drafted --
It also allows for us not seeing another first round WR for at least the duration of CJ's rookie contract - which is a very good position to take out of first round consideration, where we knwo all too well the success rate of "can't miss" "go-to guys"
The whole purpose of the Draft is to find those talented players who can produce and dominate at their position. It's about converting potential into results. So with all the problems the Lions have had in their recent drafts, Roy Williams is one selection that has turned out well. Now that the Lions have a producer at WR, why is everybody wanting to trade him. Because his contract is up???? If you did that with all your players, you'd have nothing but players with potential and not many delivering results.
The Lions will have the ability to clear enough cap space they can sign Roy, and Roy will be happy when he is paid top dollar. If they can't sign him they can franchise him. I think this is more of a media story than a football story.
Unless the Lions get offered multiple #1's then Roy will not be traded.
truthfully
WEVE SUBTRACTED ENOUGH AND I TAKE COACH RODS WORD HE WILL BE HERE for the 2007 season-then unfortunately he will be gone the same way woody,edwards and duckett were gone cause we cant afford both him and cj-see mc donald moving up to replace him after next year
2008/2009 season
jjlios20, the only reason I want to trade Roy Williams is because they need more talent at so many positions except WR. At WR, they have guys sitting who are good enough to play. Trading him to get more talent at positions that are involved on every down, such as tackles, can improve your team quicker than having so many good receivers that some are sitting the bench and others are playing and not involved during running plays. You can't trade CJ cause of the salary hit. The others are not able to get enough value in trade. That leaves Williams to trade to get the most help at another position.
hollyweed88
I wish to add a thank you to those who post this site. There are very smart opinions stated that I have been very impressed hearing. This has been very exciting to find such smart fans who think so good. I even thank a few who have bordered on being rude to me because I have a different opinion than yours. That's okay. Your opinion was very good. I just had a different take.
hollyweed88
Hollyweed88, I understand what you're saying about upgrading the talent at different positions, but trading talent for draft picks is dangerous. Because your trading talent for "potential" talent. So many bad trades are made a week before the draft because the perception is the value of the pick goes up. That's why the Lions were smart to deal Rogers as soon as they could. Teams start reading and listening to all the hype and feel they need to move up or loose the player they really want.
I don't mind trading Roy if we fleece the Cowboys in the process. But one pick in the 20's for Roy is not a good trade in my opinion.
Just a different opinion which is what makes this site fun. You can give your opinion if you back it up with some logic, and not get blasted in the process.
Lets see what happens.
jjlions20, you have a very valid argument. It is making me question my own ideas.
My problem is I started watching the Lions when I was 10 years old. The home games were only on radio. The Lions were the champs. I still have the "Detroit Times" sports page from the day after they won 56-14 against the Browns. I listended to the radio with my father on the front room rug.
I am now 60, disabled, and on oxygen, and out of time to wait for the long fix. I want one last championship while I can still enjoy it. So, I am looking for the fastest fix, even if it has to take a chance on a high draft bust. (Again.)
I enjoy your intelligent words.
hollyweed88
Hollyweed
I agree with JJLions, and not to beat a dead horse, but the reason I feel they shouldn't pull the trigger on a trade with Roy (unless they break the bank) is 1) Roy is proven, and 2) Matt Millen picks your draft picks.
Nobsnubber
Being a big fan of Roy it's hard for me to say trade him. All in all, I think he is over rated as a WR (good but not elite) and he has a huge market value right now. I would try to trade him to Dallas giving them Roy and our #15 for their two firsts (I would then take Mayo and Merling or Balmer). Jerry Jones has already said publicly that he would love to have Roy playing for the cowboys and I think it is a trade that is could be pulled off. I can find the links to J.J. making that statement if anyone is questioning it.
Although I appreciate everyone's opinions about what the Lions should do, I just can't understand the logic in drafting a running back early in this draft. Let's just say we didn't have so many holes to fill, the draft is so deep at RB and in my opinion there just isn't enough talent separation to justify picking one in the first round. There are plenty of good choices to be had in rounds 2 and later when looking for a talented running back.
I put this little list in the oder of how I would rate them in the draft, I really hope I didn't leave anyone out: 1. J. Stewart, 2. Mendenhall, 3. McFadden, 4. F. Jones, 5. C. Johnson, 6. Charles, 7. Forte, 8. Choice, 9. Smith, 10. Rice, 11. Slaton, 12. Owen Schimitt, 13. M. Hart, 14. J. Parmele, 15. Boyd, 16. C. Stewart, and 17. Caulrick
Anyway, my point is that there is plenty of Running back talent to be had probably till round 6. Don't be surprised if Detroit takes Defense with the first two to three picks before taking a RB and OT. RB, OT and CB are very deep this year and most of the other positions of need aren't. IMO we have to draft for need, not best possible player.
Lik
I'm still on the side of the fence that Roy will not be traded. But KC's offer to Cinci for Chad Johnson, has me perplexed. First, wouldn't Roy be on par with Chad. I personally feel Chad is the better athlete, but Roy has none of the attitude issues. And I'm not big on being in the top 5 due to the money issue, but it still has me thinking. Any Thoughts?
Ok, Humor me for a moment. Now Cinci is denying the offer was made, but it creates another what if in my mind. Due to are cap issues, and the amount of talent available that we could use in the second round. Would a trade that gives us a say a 2nd round pick this year and a 1st in next years draft be a more advantagous situation. aside from the obvious that we aren't getting much now, but we would be adding to are ability to build a team for the future? just a conceptual thought so don't beat up on me to bad.
Cincy changed its' mind on whether the offer was made, but Roy is on par with Chad Johnson (or close) -- So considering Roy doesn't have the Diva issues Chad does... those who say 28th pick for Roy are undervaluing him by a LOT. The market has set the value, and it is high. Two low-first rounders for Roy is now the starting point -- period. Anything less in my book would be criminal. Here is the link to the Bengals-KC trade offer story:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3358557
Ok, I'll start with saying that I'm not in favor of trading Roy for a low 1st round pick. Trading talent for potential talent. But like I said if we can fleece a team then lets go for it. The reports are Washington offered a 1st and a 3rd for Johnson and Cincy turned them down. Roy may not be as accomplished as Johnson, but he also doesn't bring the baggage, so you would think Roy would be of the same or higher value. If Washington can’t get Johnson, they also have to be inquiring about Roy. According to the following report:
http://gcobb.com/content/view/1371/46/
The Eagles are now in the bidding for Roy. Now that could be three teams in the same division in a bidding war for Roy. As the draft gets closer teams can make crazy moves. This could drive up the price, and all we need is the ego's of Jerry Jones, and Daniel Snyder to get in a one upsmanship battle. If the bidding gets above two #1's and another lower pick, then the Lions will have to pull the trigger.
Clusterfox has a great point, with Detroit’s cap issues, they could pick up a #1 next year as part of the deal with a combination of #2's or #3's in this years draft. That would allow for a better Cap situation to sign two #1 picks next year.
Let the fun begin. Less than 90 hours to the draft.....
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