Friday, March 20, 2009

How Much for Cutler-y?

When my wife and I got married, we went out and put together a registry of items. There was a scanner we would take around the store, and when you scanned the UPC code on an item it would add it to your registry so people would know what to buy you. Want more than one? Scan it multiple times!

There is a sense of practicality to this. More than one person may want to get you, for instance, kitchen utensils, dishes, serving bowls, etc. But what to get? If you didn't have a registry, you were likely to either have a hodge-podge of different sets of dishes, 5 different knife sets, 6 coffee makers and lord knows how many salt and pepper shakers. The registry allowed us to have a unified plan, and save lots of time trying to take things back and then go shopping again or getting a bunch of items that didn't go together.

The other consideration (for us, at least) was price. We wanted to be sure the set we were putting together was affordable for us (to add to and replace items later) and for our wedding guests (they only had so much money to spend on us, after all.)

If it's not apparent by now, it should be, that Martin Mayhew has sat down with Jim Schwartz and put together a registry of what they need. Unfortunately, the NFL store has very limited stocks and supplies, so you often have to make do until the right crockery that matches your set comes in. Maybe you have to settle for a complementary color versus the exact pattern youre looking for.

In FA thus far, Mayhew has done a lot of shopping at the second hand stores trying to pick up complementary pieces, or older pieces that match his pattern pretty well, but are kind of worn and will need to be replaced soon. Hes not fooling himself the Lions know their team resembles the kitchen of a college student who took bits and pieces of various sets, resale shops, and garage sales to stock his apartment versus the more refined and planned d├ęcor of my home, for instance.

The draft is where Mayhew gets to go to the store, and pick out what he needs to start building his kitchen. Knives, of course, are a good place to start. They are like the QB of the kitchen. You dont really need to have a lot of different knives but you need at least one really good set of cutlery.

But with a set of ginsu-class Cutlery possibly available, the question becomes: how much is it worth? You already have a set of Culpepper and a Stanton. The Henson isnt all that, but you can easily pick up a very budget friendly Leftwich to round out your cutting utensils for now. If you buy the Cutlery though, the price just may be so much that you would have to forsake 2 or 3 place settings to get it because of the cost.

Is it worth it?

Is that shiny Cutlery so much better than your current knife set, or one you can get in the draft, that its worth that much? Sadly, I would have to say no. What good is a really good knife if you dont have a place setting to put the food on to eat it?

The bidding for Jay Cutler is supposedly going to start at 2 first rounder draft picks. If that is the case, bid up Tampa Bay and whomever and drop out. Mayhew hasnt been overspending on anyone if FA and trades, and he should extend that to Cutler. The Lions need those 2 first round picks, as well as the additional 3rd or #2 next year, to add starters (place settings) to their team!

If the Lions were a QB away (say Minnesota if they werent in denial about Tavaris Jackson) then I would say go for it. A teams success can change how it looks at the draft. The more holes a team has, the more it is about quantity of draft picks to fill multiple needs. Teams with fewer holes are more about specific players at specific positions to tweak or improve their already successful team. Jay Cutler, at multiple firsts, would fall into that category for me.

Denver is the one who created this mess, and Detroit has all the leverage in the world. They would be fine to sit back and roll with the picks and players they have. Cutler has put Denver in a position of weakness on this, and everyone knows it. They may keep a disgruntled QB this year and deal with it but certainly not 2 or 3. Not when they can get some value for him.

My take: One pick, and one pick only. Be it #1 overall, or #20, or #33. But one and only one of those picks. If a trade must involve multiple picks (and better value for the Lions, IMO) then trade #1 and #20 for Cutler and #12.

I would be happy with either of those. Thats it. Anything else is over-paying. The Lions have a dinner party for 22 coming up in the fall and right now they are short quite a few place settings. They cant afford to short those for one really nice knife.


Mark in AZ said...

Well done Detfan79 I agree we need the picks and not over pay.

One thought on Culter I don't know if he talked too much to the press before or if he stayed quiet but, I think this hurts him and his runnning of his mouth is going against what Mahyew has done so far. Like I said I don't know if it's just the sisuation or not and he's a quiet person. I think stay away because we know now if he does not like the sisuation he's in than he'll force the hand of the team he's on and Detroit does not need that.

CHIEFGER139 said...

i would give both our picks -hes that good and this year is a right off year for us anyhow-still could get the top guard in the draft with our 2nd pick , maybe even our third (herman munster johnson)-posibly a better mlb with our 2nd thats plenty to build with the following year as we can pay for cutler this year and wouldnt have to give up any picks the following year-cutler is one player that can take you to the superbowl-building the other way with dud qbs-it takes years to even become respectaful

Isphet said...

Holy analogies, Batman.

I totally agree that we can't give up any more than our number 1 and number 20 for Cutler and number 12. Well, OK, I take that back: I would straight up give our number 1 for him, without swapping the other picks. The Lions need bodies to fill holes on the roster. Less draft picks = less bodies.

I've become slightly less enamored by Cutler throughout this process. He seems kind of whiny to me. The whole reason this is a problem is because he doesn't think he should even be considered to be "tradeable." Grow a layer of skin or three, dude. It's football.

DetFan1979 said...

Just to be clear, I'm okay with cutler for:

Any ONE pick, be it #1 to #65 or lower.

OR #1 & 20 for Cutler and 12.

I would be okay with them trading #20 or lower and a player (depending on who) for Cutler.

Anything more than that I feel you are just giving up too much.

As for Cutler, Bus Cook is also CJ's agent, and it would be in his best interest to keep both of them happy and in Detroit. He can't shoot his way out of town for one because it would screw over the other one.

If two players are going to have the same powerful agent, why not a pro-bowl caliber QB and WR?

Cake and frosting...

RIP said...

I agree with DetFan and many others, like Mark, Isphet, LIK, and JJLions, that Cutler is only worth a net draft pick loss.

Cutler was a product of the system on offense, and part of a team with a poor defense. Yes, he was a Probowler last year. But Jon Kitna had Probowl stats with Mike Martz running the offense. Denver also had a very respectful running game.

Cutler for his career is below .500 as a starter while being in the right situation.

If we want Cutler that bad to lose 2 draft picks, then I am for taking Stafford at #1 or Freeman at #20. I am not a Stafford backer. I believe that we should give the draft a chance with new management. In saying that, I hope our priority is still rebuilding the front 7 on defense, and draft interior linemen this year. With fewer draft picks now, hopefully we can add 2 to 3 depth players with our last four to five picks.

As Ty says,

CHIEFGER139 said...

SORRY FOR YOUR CONCERNS GUYS-but seen how your advice last year worked out-sure got the ot-but went 0-16 from a 7-9 team bent on makin the playoffs-many want to do the dumb same stupid thing!! no thanks-the good teams get olineman latter herman johnson the beast of this draft we can get in the 3rd-face it beyond the 3rd there all backups or basically loser lion team starters at best-cutler is a brett farve type guy period hes awsome-not a old washed up guy-not some wet dream other position offer-hes the real deal-elway but younger-you cant pass up on giving up zero-where basically where we are and getting the highest most prised piece of the puzzle period-if vikes had him they would of crushed the steelers-they didnt-arizona did -but not much else-oh -thats where we are-if it was warner were goin after ok-only a couple years left-cutler has 10 years left and hes like the vikes ap=somethin to be proud of and to build on-we have crap-and truthfully i think the character guys clean locker room crap- and the no fat guy crap deserved what it got-worst team in nfl history-hopefully we got a coach who can deal with the superstar head problems-if we dont we will be like northwestern in the big ten-nice guys but usually the worst there is in the big ten year after year-no thanks!! weve been there for 8 years now with millen please even get us to the premillen years-id love 8-8, 9-7 years worst 5-11 years again yes i would-im a old desperate lion fan give me anything positive!!

CHIEFGER139 said...

and to follow up-after all these years of sufferin-i used to right all the teams down-and what they needed to do to make the playoffs-in the fontes years and beyond we were always in the hunt-since then were almost eliminated before then except last year-coach rod brought that again-maybe it was martz-i dont know-but it was exciting 2007 season-then us sayin trade down get more picks etc etc made more sense-it was fix a few things here and there now its beyond fixing-why i say if cutlers available get him-if you got the key-the rest is easier to fix-the best lt in the league wont get you in the playoffs-the best qb will and win you superbowls-period!!

DetFan1979 said...

Two Words Chief: Dan Marino

Pacer said...

I am a huge fan of Cutler. This is from ESPN regarding Cutler's disposition

"Denver Broncos QB Jay Cutler is getting jerked around like a Shetland Pony at a six-year-old's birthday party.
Just to recap: Incredible young talent leads team to second-rated offense in the league last year. Has seven 300-plus yard games and one 400-plus yarder. Does it all while going through seven different running backs and a defense with more holes than a Tyler Perry plot. Makes the Pro Bowl. Becomes the leader of the team.
Then his coach gets fired. Then the guy calling his plays leaves town. Then he finds out his new coach -- a 32-year-old rookie -- is shopping him for a trade. In the NFL, if you're thinking of shopping your star, you better not get caught.
But the Rookie got caught.
Only The Rookie lies about it -- says he was only "listening to offers." Then, in a face-to-face with Cutler, the coach flip-flops. Says, "Yes, we were trying to trade you, so what?" Cutler gets torqued and says so. The world starts calling Cutler a "baby" and reminds him that "this is a business."
But now Cutler sees he's not wanted, can't trust his coach and is no longer the leader in his teammates' eyes. So his career is suddenly dropping like GE stock. His ability to perform has been shredded. So he says, "Trade me," and now he's spoiled? He needs to shut up and take it? How come it's a business for everybody but Cutler?

This if from Pat Kirwin of NFL Network relative to what Cutler is worth and what he has accomplished.
Remember, the the Broncos wait too long to trade him that value in picks is going to diminish. This weeks upcoming NFL meetings might tell the tale.

This is a must read

Pacer said...

RIP and others-as the articles point out the Broncos lost 7 running backs to injury last year. In one game they had to start a fullback at tailback simply because they had nobody else. When that happens you throw the ball and then you throw it again. Cutler threw for over 4500 yards last year and he is only going to get better. He was most definitely not in an "ideal situation".

Once in a great while a pro bowl 25 year old QB comes around-are you telling me you are not going to do what it takes. Listen to those that have played with him, those that have coached him and those that follow him for the major news organizations. When asked should a team go after him, including the Lions-the answer is almost universally--yes.

Pacer said...

Detroit Fan--as always-great posts-thanks.

Anonymous said...

Chief, no disrespect as I know you love the Lions and football but your statements are exactly why you are not the GM. You can't get your emotions so tied up in certain players that you can't think straight, ever play much poker?

Pacer, I have read that Cutler pretty much kept to himself a lot (locker room/personal time) in his time with the Broncos seems to be a little conflicting with what you are posting. Don't get me wrong I think the guy is very talented and would love to have him here for the right price. I'm just stating that there may or may not be something there to raise some flags or maybe it was he didn’t care much for the players as it seems that he loved playing for Shannahan.

Ty, if you referring to Cutlers Win/Loss record as the part of him being a product of his system then yes I agree with you. If it is anything else then I can’t as I truly believe that aside from Matt Ryan and maybe Joe Flacco that Jay is one of the most promising young quarterbacks in the league right now that shows great long term star potential.

So far I really like what the front office has been doing and look forward to what they have still to bring. With that said, what’s next for the Lions?
If nothing else happens before the draft I believe we can look forward to them addressing MLB, DT, OT (or Guard), DE and CB with our first five picks (I put them in the order that I felt as importance). As for the first pick in the draft, the Lions will definitely sign the guy that is the cheapest to sign (I can almost guarantee it will not be Stafford as the agent he has is well know for trying to "break the bank" meaning he wants absolute top dollar for his player he is negotiating for). I also wouldn't be surprised if around the third round they draft Pat White if he is available as he looks to be a Cordell Stewart type player whom can play just about anywhere on the field. I also find value in the guy from Cinci that played both DE/OLB and tight end around that pick as well (Connor Baldwin?). The Lions can truly not go wrong this year just drafting BPA with every draft pick they have. Now in closing I would just like to say again that I would really like them to sign another Veteran QB before the season begins and let the best man win the competition through preseason and spring training (Someone like Leftwich). If neither CPep and Stanton look too good this year, next year there is always Colt McCoy and Tim Tebow coming out in the draft.

I enjoyed the post Detfan and have a great weekend all…


RIP said...

I believe we should be interested in Cutler. But at what cost. It takes 11 guys on each unit to play team football. One guy alone can not do it. A franchise QB, or RB, can cover many weaknesses.

Wayne Fontes ignored the O-line after Utley and Andolsek went down because of the greatness of Barry Sanders.

When in rebuild mode, do you draft for as many starters as posible, or do you go after a Franchise QB. At what cost do you want that QB in the first year of rebuild. This year we have 5 picks in the first three rounds. Next year it will be back to one pick for each round.

Stafford would be a great upgrade at QB. So would be our #1 and #20 picks at other positions. We need help at 6 diffent positions, and this does not include building depth.

Anonymous said...

In my post I meant RIP not Ty. I'm sure you realized it. Have a good weekend everyone!


RIP said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mark in AZ said...

Stafford is not the answer there's better QB's coming out next year that's why he choose this year to come out because he would be a late 1st or second next. In 2006 he would of been a 2nd round pick just by numbers alone. Just because Mel "bad hair" Kiper say's he #1 does not make it so just look at the other #1 he said were great Mike Williams (bust) Vince Young jury still out, Smith in San Fran. just to give a few. If Kiper say's some one is the best or sure fire to make it I say stay away and far away.

Defense wins championships just look at the Ravens when they won who was their QB?

nubs said...


Good discussions today and some very valid points.

QB's without rings:
Jim Kelly
Dan Fouts
Ricahard Todd
Gary Danielson

Listen, the agents are trying to trump up THEIR guys. Pat Whyte made a HUGE decision at his pro day and didn't run any routes. He played QB and did ONLY QB drills.

With the lack of QB's in the draft, agents are trying to pump up Nate Davis (Ball State) and Pat Whyte, and there are nothing between them and the top three guys. In looking at Whyte, he SHOULD be viewed like slash. The cannon isn't there.

I've been breaking down STAFFORD vs FREEMAN.

To me, the winner is FREEMAN. Staffordhas a cannon for an arm, but doesn't go deep into his progressions, and when he gets through 1,2,safety valve...he goes into mental lock down. There were a few games where he should take a sack or throw the ball away, and he forces it into double and triple coverages. There isn't good touch on his mid-range balls, and in the middle part of the season, he got "happy feet".

The thing I really like about Freeman is he didn't have all those tools around him. At K-State, Freeman was THE guy, Not Massaqoui or Moreno.

Freeman shouldered the load, and if you look at the skill set, that is also what Cutler did at Vanderbuilt. Freeman really thinks on his feet, and can take off scrambling, but I love the fact that he will extend the pocket sliding left or right to escape pressure, and step up and throw a good ball.

That really shows a quarterback's ability to not shit his pants, stay with a play, and think things through. He's a big kid and reminds me of a certain Steeler QB. He can take contact, and still make good throws after it. I think this kid is the better of the two.

I have NOT broke down any film on Sanchez yet.

If the Lions were serious about Stafford-wouldn't they look at Freeman or Sanchez? Neither have been in town.

When I moved to Newberry (from Detroit ten years ago) I needed two new vehicles. Both cars were traded in for a four wheel drive SUV (kid hauler) and a truck (hay hauler for the new horse--long story). One was going to be for luxury (wife and kids), one for economy.

I could have gotten a quad cab truck and a basic SUV, but when pricing out both vehicles, it made more sense (and cents) to go with a basic work truck, and give the wife the more plush vehicle. That is what the Lions need to figure out. Can they get a high quality QB at #20? Can they get a MLB at #20? Which #2 guy is better? Who can you not afford to select at #1 because you can't find a close #2 19 picks later.

Bottom line is, can you gore your steak with a butter knife? Or do you need the Ginsu?

RIP said...

Here is thought for our defense.

From Dave Birkett's 3/20/2009 blog on "A glimpse of Schwartz's defense", he quoted Schwartz like using left and right side LBs.

From Meyhew, we would like to get bigger.

Next year is an uncapped year, so any cuts or trades will not handicap us next year.

What is the likelyhood that Ernie Sims is on the trading block being he is 5'11" and 235 lbs? With his size, I would believe he is maxed out.

nubs said...

The other thing I was concerned about with the left tackle situation, is...has Baylor's Jason Smith played against competition coming from Waco, TX.

Wake Forest L, 41-13
Northwestern State W, 51-6
Washington State W, 45-17
Connecticut L, 31-28
Oklahoma L, 49-17
Iowa State W, 38-10
Oklahoma State L, 34-6
Nebraska L, 32-20
Missouri L, 31-28
Texas L, 45-21
Texas A&M W, 41-21
Texas Tech L, 35-28

I was anticipating Orakpo lining across from Smith when I found the game tape of the Texas game, and anticipated a seemingly good battle. Orakpo was injured, and they still flushed the crap out of the QB. Smith didn't look good and was on the RIGHT side playing against. Now, to his credit, Baylor started a freshamn at QB this year, and he rushed for 105 yards in this game. I was not impressed for a #1. I was not impressed for a first round pick. I thought he was a converted TE to left tackle. I really liked the kid's feet, he was athletic and could pull well. He could play in space and stay with ends most of the time, but he wasn't a good run blocker head-up against Texas.

In addition, Eugene Monroe had a left knee injury last season, and now people are talking that th Lions (and others) really need to take that under advisement because of how he looked before/after the injury.

DEFENSIVE TACKLE If the Lions are NOT thinking Raji with the #1, and are looking with the #20 or #33--Evander "Ziggy" Hood is the name. He is lighter at 300 pounds even, but he benched 225 34 times at the combine, and did it 36 times at his pro day. He is impressive on tape as well. I stumbled on his tape against Baylor (while looking at Smith). WOW! Explodes off the ball. His defensive unit didn't play well, but I thought he did and he fought well through the double-teams that he drew. He continued to fight, but Texas definately game-planned for him.

Isphet said...

That's funny; I've been comparing Freeman to Big Ben for a while now also. He's not super flashy, but he's good at standing/moving while inside the pocket and delivering the ball. Ben went around 20th overall, and so will Freeman. One thing about Freeman though; I think if the Jets don't get a QB before the draft; they will be taking one with their first pick; and that will most likely be Freeman, unless either Sanchez or Stafford drops that low. Heck, they might take Freeman over Sanchez if Sanchez hasn't been selected yet.

So with the 20th pick, the Lions will most likely have Sanchez on the board and Freeman and Stafford would be gone (assuming the Lions don't take QB overall at 1.) I just don't see Stafford being there still by 20, and I don't see all 3 QBs off the board by then if the Lions don't take one off the board right away.

I'd still rather see Cutler instead of any of those guys, because he's a proven commodity.

Here's another trade "what if": Lions trade their #1 and Ernie for Cutler and Denver's number 12. The Lions move down in the draft some, but get Cutler, the 12th and the 20th pick. The Broncos get first crack at whatever QB they want and a young LB that's anywhere from waning into mediocrity to being a perennial pro-bowler.

Isphet said...

Oh, one thing about Jason Smith that I dislike immensely. He's a converted Tight End. He hasn't played OT his whole life; but has the size and raw talent to possibly be great.

Remind you guys of anyone else? Alama-Francis, maybe? Size and raw ability is acceptable for the collegiate level and you can be very effective there; but in the NFL you need the proper schemata built up from years of practice to be successful at that level.

5-0 has struggled learning the ropes in the pros because he started so much farther back than anyone else. I'm afraid Jason Smith will be the same way: all potential, no polish.

RIP said...

I like Evander "Ziggy" Hood too. Seems like the coplete package for an under tackle. Should be a first round every down lineman. Like him much better than Jerry Peria and Ron Brace. Peria and Brace seemed slow at the snap of the ball.

CHIEFGER139 said...

WELL GUYS I STICK TO MY GUNS-WERE NO LONGER A 7-9 team bent on makin the playoffs-not even close-no where near-so i say again get cutler at all costs but realize it most likely dont happen-kind of like the trade down scenerios etc-but yes get cutler period-the excitement he would bring here is awsome-most all of you bitchin about him maybe even det fan 79 hasnt actually seen him play i have several times-hes the real deal a awsome qb-all on our team are total scrubs compared to him-he even makes rivers look like a grade schooler compared to him-hes totally awsome if the vikes had him theyd win the superbowl-wouldnt of been even close thats the vikes need is someone like him-i will feel and realize reality we wont get him and im stuck with this long term rebuilding crap-ok i will live with it better than draftin stafford i guess-if we do that we will recover but it will set us back another 5 years unfortunately!!

RIP said...

Hey Chief,

We should meet some time over a cup of coffee, say just close to you in Leonidas on M-60 or Athens? Did think about going to your daughter's funeral in Battle Creek. I do feel for you for what you have gone thru the last four months. Somewhat similar to when both of my parents past away in 2005, my mom when I was in the Middle East. Did talk to her on Fathers Day, five days before she past away, and she sounded normal. She health went within 72 hours and died on a Thursday.

We have more in common for I have good friends in Georgia.

Anonymous said...

Great blog as usual.
Everyone is in agreement that the Lions should try to get Cutler. The question is at what cost. The Lions desperately need Impact players on Defense. If they trade the 2 #1's to get Cutler, the draft scenarios get even scarier.Do they pick OL at #2.1 to protect Cutler? Or is MLB or DT the next priority? They just will not have enough picks to fill the remaining holes and they will then have to reach for players which will be like the Dizon mistake all over again. Just like Isphet, I think the ideal trade is Sims + #1 for Cutler and #12. They will still have picks and get a great QB. I would hate to see Sims go and that will also mean no Curry (whom I think will be an immediate star just like Patrick Willis a few years ago) but the Weakside LB can be filled easier especially with player like D.Brooks still available or even moving Dizon to WLB.
PS does anyone have any thoughts on Osgood from SD. I saw that the Chargers want to trade him (maybe a 6TH rounder will do). He is a pretty good special teams returner whom the Lions can used and play him on offense which is what he wants.

Anonymous said...

Well, I'm not onboard for the Lions geting Cutler at all. The Lions have worked hard {read Millen} to get where they are, 0-16 and with the first pick of this years draft. Mayhew snookered Dallas in the Roy trade, we've accumuated additional draft picks and it makes no sense to me to spend/squander them on a trade. "The experts" suggest next year's class of QBs is better than this year's, then would be the time to draft a QB.

And realistically any serious rebuild of this broken franchise is going to come via the draft, as there are so many vacancies in the lineup the Lions look like Swiss cheese, so I'm totally against trading any picks for Cutler or any other "big name" character.

One player, no matter how highly rated by the fans is going to fix the Lions. I think/hope Mayhew realizes this, I mean Mayhew and Lewand did say they were rebuilding thru the draft, so why change the strategy now?

We are likely a top 10 pick again next year, a rebuild isn't going to happen overnight via a trade, so pick by pick select the "right" collegian that will contribute to the rebuild.

Just say NO, to the Cutler trade.

Go Lions,

RIP said...

Been thinking long on this. We do need to run, and stop the run, first.

We need 1 and preferably 2 large DTs. We also need 2 ILBs along with a G and G/C. I think Johnson (not Calvin) and Stadeford may be good for 2/3 competition this year.

If we take Raji first, Unger second, MLB third, and then BPA DT fourth, we would be set to go BPA with the rest of the draft while accomplishing our goals.