For those new to this page, the Lions Congregation is a collection of Lions Bloggers (some past, some present) from around the web looking at issues and questions about our Detroit Lions - each from their own unique perspective. Have a question or topic? Email the Lions Congregation!
The Panel:
Al of The Wayne Fontes Experience
NetRat of The NetRat Detroit Lions site and blog (also our resident capologist)
Zac of The Sidelion Report
Jeff - Special Guest and founder of the Lions Congregation
Blades Boyd - founding member and resident contrarian at Roar of the Lions
Joshua aka DetFan1979 - Your humble host at Roar of the Lions
Due to some readers who indicated that the congregation answers ran together too easily, I am going to give each author their own section with all three of their answers lumped together this week, versus gathering all the panelists' responses by question. Please let me know which format you prefer!
Al of The Wayne Fontes Experience
1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
I'm not going to get on Schwartz's case over the use/non-use of challenges. Why? Because the whole damn replay system is broken. Hell, the rules are broken to the point where I don't know what is or isn't a fumble or a touchdown any more.
How an NFL head coach can and can't use challenges is ridiculous. A play called a touchdown receives an automatic booth review. If the same play isn't called a touchdown, it can't be reviewed without a challenge. Uh...WHAT? That is rule making at it's most, well, idiotic.
NFL coaches shouldn't have to depend upon the whims of the TV networks in order to get a good enough view to determine if a challenge is a good idea. And that's just what happened, especially on the worst spot ever. The refs kept the game moving, not allowing Schwartz time to make an informed decision...or even an educated guess.
Say the play in question was the Saints getting a 1st down, but Schwartz challenging what was a correct spot despite not having concrete evidence to the contrary. We'd be getting out the torches and pitchforks. Do you really want the head coach in a playoff game making half-assed challenges?
Anyone saying Schwartz should have thrown the challenge flag isn't being fair. On the 2 plays mentioned, Schwartz was caught between a rock and a hard place. The rock being a specious challenge system and the hard place incompetent refereeing.
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
When the play first happened, I was damned upset. How the Saints would have played when 21-7 down would have differed compared to 14-7. The Saints would have been back on their heels. But thinking about it, I don't think the Lions win even if they were given the TD. The Saints are that damn good. The score would have looked a little better in the history books, nothing more.
If I'm going to throw blame around (and why the Hell not?), once again fingers must be pointed at incompetent refereeing. Why the whistle was blown is beyond me. You would think referees would not blow a play dead if there is any chance the ball could still be in play. In this case, it was cut and dry. There was a very good possibility the ball was live. Yet the refs still blew it...the whistle and the ruling.
3. Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
3. Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
Stephen Tulloch is unquestionably the defensive MVP. The Lions best get him signed to a multi-year deal, post haste. But I digress...
To answer the question; as good as Megatron was, and he was great, Matthew Stafford was better.
Yes, Calvin Johnson's numbers were All-Pro worthy. But Stafford's numbers were at historic levels. Levels we couldn't have imagined, let alone seen, as Lions fans. Stafford shattered every Lions' single season passing record. He became only the 4th quarterback in NFL history to throw for more than 5000 yards. Don't forget leading 4 comebacks from 13 or more points down, something which has never been done in NFL history.
The Lions made the playoffs because Stafford played at an elite level. Period. If he doesn't, the Lions aren't in
New Orleans last weekend.
Give Matthew Stafford the team MVP.
NetRat of The NetRat Detroit Lions site and blog
1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
I don't know who is in charge of telling the coaching staff to challenge, I assume there is someone who's job it is to quickly check the play for that kind of thing. We get the benefit of super slow-mo replay and hindsight (as we dwell on things) but with whatever tools the Lions have they might've been unsure at the time if a challenge was winnable or they might have been saving them for something really big later (if needed). As for the forward progress thing, at the time I thought first down... it was only later that I heard it might not have been.
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
The inadvertent whistle was par for the year in officiating. The Lions were lucky to get possession at all (and then did nothing with it). I've seen them whistle a play dead and not allow the turnover. The officiating that affected the game the most were the non-calls on holding by the O-Lines. When your entire defense is predicated on interior pass rush and the OLine can hold as much as they want you have effectively disabled the defense and made it useless. Letting the players play backfired for the Lions in that game.
3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
My vote for the 2011 Lions MVP is Matt Stafford. Broke the Lions yardage record, TD record, passing attempts record and pass completions record... and is only the 4th QB in the history of the NFL to reach 5,000 yards in a single season. The Lions have been around a long time and this was a serious uptick in the record books. This record may or may not ever be broken, but if it is, it'll probably be by Matt Stafford (in some future year).
Zac of The Sidelion Report
1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
-Since each team get's two maybe it would have been worth challenging either of those plays but I think they would have been low percentage challenges. Certain things have a tendency to be overblown in the wake of a loss and I think that is the case here. With the recent challenge history in mind (Green Bay), I can see why Schwartz would want to hold on to the red flag rather than taking a low percentage flier on a play in the middle of the field.
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
-The fan in me hated seeing that opportunity lost as a result of an inadvertent whistle but I don't believe a fumble return for a touchdown would have changed the outcome of the game. There are just too many things the Lions did poorly that they did have control over to lay much blame on the officials; namely, the defense's inability to force a punt. The possibility that it would have changed the tone of the game only holds water if one believes the defense could have gotten a few stops and the Lions could have run the ball effectively. There was no evidence in that game to suggest that either would have happened.
3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
-It's easily Matthew Stafford. Of the three I immediately boil it down to a choice between Stafford and Johnson and decided based on the "V" in MVP. While Megatron was certainly valuable in terms of the success of the offense, it was Stafford who had the noticeable statistical disparity between wins and losses. To me, the definition of "valuable" ultimately comes down to wins and losses and there was no Lion whose performance determined wins and losses more than Matthew Stafford. Considering the Lions won more than they lost, Stafford gets the nod as team MVP.
Jeff - Special Guest and founder of the Lions Congregation
1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
Blades Boyd - founding member & resident contrarian
1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
Let me start by saying even if Schwartz did challenge and win, I don't think it would have mattered. Saints still would have won because they pretty much went for it and got it every time they had a 4th down.
That being said, there is absolutely no doubt those plays should have been challenged and yes Schwartz messes up big time by not doing so. But should he criticized for it??? Not at all. Keep in mind, he's done something that a lot of REALLY good coaches couldn't do (Bobby Ross and Mooch to name a few) and that's get the Lions back to the playoffs and have a winning season. Schwartz will learn from this game and next time, I'm sure you will see a challenge flag tossed on those plays.
That being said, there is absolutely no doubt those plays should have been challenged and yes Schwartz messes up big time by not doing so. But should he criticized for it??? Not at all. Keep in mind, he's done something that a lot of REALLY good coaches couldn't do (Bobby Ross and Mooch to name a few) and that's get the Lions back to the playoffs and have a winning season. Schwartz will learn from this game and next time, I'm sure you will see a challenge flag tossed on those plays.
If any coach needs to be questioned it's Gunther Cunningham. I have not liked his play calling all season and he really got exposed the last few weeks. He blitzed a total of four times in the game which result in the Willie Young forced fumble, one incompletion and one hurry. The rest of the game he sat back and while the Saints were in max protection, Breed just picked them apart. Gunther has really showed his age this season and is beginning to get out of touch with the changing NFL. Unfortunately, he's Schwartz's mentor and will be stuck with him for a while. (I wish they'd go after Steve Spagnola)
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
Like I said before, I don't think any play had a major impact on the game. Say the lions had an extra 14 points in the game, they still lose. Sorry to be that straight forward about it but it is just that simple.
3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
As good of a season Stafford had, Calvin is the MVP. In my opinion, we probably still would have made the playoffs without Stafford. There isn't a chance we make the playoffs without Calvin. I know some people disagree with me but look at the stats. During the 5-0 run, CJ had a touchdown in every game and close to 100 yards. During the up and down stretch in the middle of the season? Calvin wasn't scoring and was averaging 68.5 yards a game. At the end of the season when we were winning again, he averaged over 100 yards a game and over a TD a game. That in itself proves to me anyway, he should get some votes for league MVP, not just the Lions MVP.
Joshua aka DetFan1979 - Your humble host at Roar of the Lions
1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?
Based on how the officials were calling the game, I don't think that either call would have been overturned, and obviously neither did Jim Schwartz. The crew calling the game was "letting 'em play" and those calls were just part of it.
I will say, that whole attitude cost the Lions ANY chance they had of winning the game against New Orleans. The Saints defense is based around the blitz -- so not calling offensive holding really had little to no impact on how they played the game.
For the Lions, however, it was the exact opposite. They count on the skills and aggressiveness of their front four to create pressure on the quarterback. That is impossible if the offensive line is allowed to hold as egregiously as it was in that playoff game. So while the ref's may have been "letting players be players" in this case it created a huge disadvantage for a Lions team that already needed a near perfect game under normal circumstances to pull out a win.
2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?
Crazy enough, this stupid whistle was the ONE time all game the referees did NOT let the players play it out -- and this is the one time in the game it would have been advantage Lions.
First off, let me be clear: With how the game was being called (see above answer) and how well New Orleans' offense was playing I do not think that this call would have effected the outcome of the game.
I do, however, feel that it would have dramatically changed the "story" of the game. Themes coming out of the game are how the Lions didn't turn either turnover into points -- they did, but they were essentially taken away. I also feel the emotional hit to the Lions defense and corresponding scare and then boost to New Orleans is what allowed the Saints to pull away like they did.
If the Saints were up by 3 vs 10 later in the game -- or 10 vs 17 -- then Stafford likely doesn't have at least one of the INT's as he was really pressing knowing they didn't have time. I still think they try the onside just the same, and that the Saints win a shoot out -- it just would have been a much closer shootout that would have answered more questions about the Lions and raised more questions about the Saints.
As it was, I haven't seen a defense fielded this season that I truly feel would have been able to stop New Orleans on Saturday. Matthew Stafford was playing at an elite level making some mind boggling throws. Unfortunately, Drew Brees was playing a level above that whatever you want to call it, and some of his throws were enough to make you hit replay about 5 times on the DVR just to be sure what you were seeing happened.
3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?
All three of these players certainly had a huge impact on 2011. The way I look at it is what is the drop-off to that player's backup, and how much would it have effected their win-loss record. While Tulloch defintely filled the middle far better than anyone we've seen in the last 8 years (Paris Lenon anyone?) I feel like maybe a one game swing without him.
Calvin Johnson had one of the truly great seasons for a wide receiver in the NFL ever. Period. However, he was essentially healthy until the last couple of weeks -- when he still put up over 200 yards/game in the finale and playoffs.
This brings me to Stafford. When he was healthy at the start of the season and the end of the season the Lions offense was beyond humming -- it was a finely tuned machine of point scoring on par with Green Bay, New Orleans, and New England. When his finger was broken mid-season, the whole team became more inconsistent.
Basically, as goes Stafford so goes the Lions -- for good or ill. For me, this makes him the MVP even more than his numerous and now well documented records he broke this season.
Wrap-Up
Thank you for joining us once again! The Lions Congregation will be posted Friday evenings once again each week. So join us reading, commenting, or sending us questions to the lionscongregation@yahoo.com -- or hopefully, all three!!
Do you agree with the panelists? Disagree? Let us know!
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