Comparing 2009 to 2019 - The Roster, Then and Now

I decided what the heck, lets take a look back at 2009 then - and now.

 detfan1979.blogspot.com/2009/09/mayhews-mayhem-cut-down-weekend-in.html

I'm starting to miss this old blog again sometimes, perhaps a sign things are finally slowing back down for me and I'm in a better place. Also that my joy in the Lions is picking back up again... of course, in 2009 I was happily married with 3 little pink lions, on the beach to start the season. In 2019 I've been a single dad for quite a while now, I have 1 pink, 1 blue, and 1 rainbow teenaged lions (one in college now actually, an adult) and the Ex-Mrs Dfan is no longer in our lives.  My new fiance is, and she is an amazing Step-Mom, and a fantastic partner.  Regarding the Lions, after wading through the inane moves of one Martin Mayhew's first cut-down day, there is a listing of the final 53 man roster for the 2009 Lions in the post linked above -- I'm mixing it in with the current Lions roster just to highlight how crazy far this team has come.

2009 - QB: (3) Stafford, Culpepper, Stanton — Stafford meets Schwartz’s criteria, and has claimed the starting job. Stanton has shown he deserves a shot next season to fight for the #2 spot after solidifying the #3 spot this year.
2019 - QB: (3) Stafford, Blough, Driskel -- more potential here in the backups, and Stafford is a seasoned vet playing some of his best football this season overall. I'll go better based on his experience, but the backup situation is questionable, but are either backup worse that 2009 Daunte Culpepper bad?

2009 - RB: (3) Smith, Morris, and Brown — Cason is gone (for now, he always comes back) and speedy Tristan Davis made it to the practice squad. The Lions will be well covered here in case of injuries.
2019 - RB: (3) Kerryon Johnson, Ty Johnson, and JD McKissic. Hard to argue that these guys aren't light-years better the Kevin Smith-Maurice Morris-Aaron Brown combo. Seriously. McKissic would've started in that backfield...

2009 - FB: (2) Smith and Felton — there was no one else here, and no need for anyone else here. Solid.
2019 - FB: (2) Paul Perkins, Nick Bawden. I liked Felton and also felt they didn't utilize him well, which was common with players back in those days. I'm going to say Push at the FB position.

2009 - WR: (5) Johnson, Johnson, Williams, Northcutt, and Figurs– Standeford and/or Looker will be there to sign if an injury strikes. Still have a feeling Looker may be back if Northcutt goes down.
2019 - WR: (5) Golladay, Jones, Amendola, Marvin Hall, Travis Fulgham. It's hard to say a WR group is better when it doesn't include Calvin Johnson in his prime. However - name one guy behind CJ that could beat out Travis Fulgham even. Anyone? Bueller?


2009 - TE: (3) Pettigrew, Heller, and Fitzsimmons– Gronk was a long shot, and still has potential to make the 53 man vs the practice squad next season if he continues to show improvement. Considering Fitzsimmons’ injury history, if he goes all Dan Campbell (on IR with the Saints) Gronk may see his shot much earlier.
2019 - TE: (3) Jesse James, Hock, Logan Thomas -- Pettigrew was a pretty solid TE that was a good blocker and good pass catcher who was much maligned for being picked too high. But would you take him over Hock? I wouldn't. Jesse James looking good blocking/catching at least as good as Pettigrew ever did. And while Fitz gave his all and more to the Lions, this position group is the the very very solidly better group.


2009 - OL: (9) Backus, Loper, Raiola, Peterman, Cherilus; backups Jansen, Salaam, Ramirez, Gandy– I’m not surprised that they kept so many linemen — with Murtha and Gerberry on the practice squad they retained most of the 2nd string O-Line that looked so good in preseason (as did the starters). The Lions are finally starting to develop this unit. [NOTE: Wow was I delusional about the potential of that OL. Though I've since read the OL coaching of that unit was beyond horrific]
2019 - OL: (9) Decker, Dahl, Ragnow, Glasgow, Wagner; backups Crosby, Wiggins, Benzschawel, Aboushi. Look, I'd take the Lions current backups and they would be as good as that 2009 OL, if not better. I'm not saying the OL doesn't have its issues, but since when do you see DT's consistently knocking Ragnow anywhere -- much less like the Raiola days?

2009 - DT (4) Hill, Jackson, Cohen, Harris — Darby was cut as expected with his gas tank on “E” and Harris showed about the same as S. Smith on the field, only without the problems off the field. That could be a solid 4 man rotation, and not to forget Flu is listed here as a DE but will see plenty of time in the rotation at both spots.
2019 - DT (4) Snacks, A'Sahwn Robinson, Mike Daniels, Kevin Strong -- harder to compare since the Lions are doing a lot more variety on defense, however.... I like Sammie Lee Hill. He was a good solid role player who would be able to be the 3rd DT on this team. But the other 3? Cohen was a workout warrior, never translated to the field and the other two I can't even remember their first names tbh. No comparison to Snacks and A'Shawn up front, huge upgrade [Note: Yes, we had much better DT with Fairley-Suh combo for a short time in the middle before Mayhew effed up the Donald pick; but looking at where 2009 was until now I don't see how you can say DT is anything but at least twice as good as then...]

2009 - DE: (5) Avril, White, Hunter, Fluellen, Bryan– Bryan was an upgrade over IAF (theoretically) and hopefully will replace a lot of what the team lost when Devries went down. Not a lot of flash, but a solid dependable player. {knocks on log is using as chair around camp fire.}
2019 - DE: (3) Flowers, Okwara, Hand -- again the different defense, but we've yet to get all these guys healthy at once (or at all). Avril and Fluellen in a 4-3 did have a couple solid seasons. But would you take either one over Hand and Okwara? Flowers is low on sacks but getting good pressure. You had 2 additional DE on the 2009 team and I'd still take just these three over the 5 all day, every day. No comparison.

2009 - LB: (6) Peterson, Foote, Sims; backups Levy, Dizon, Bing– Bing is a guy who started to “get it” at LB last year, and really came on this camp and preseason. I liked Follett on ST as a gunner, but Levy and Bing did better as backup LB. If they kept 7 LB, Follett would be on the 53. Depending on how the now-loaded defensive backfield plays out, and how special teams looks, he could see the field yet this year. If not, he should be a solid competitor next season for a 6th or 7th LB spot — and we can only hope that the draft and FA allows the Lions to keep fewer people than the mass in the secondary now.
2019 - LB: (5) Kennard, Davis, Christian Jones, Tavai, Reeves-Maybin. Again they have fewer here but more quality. sims, Peterson, Foote would be an upgrade over the 3rd LB Christian Jones. But they'd rarely see the field with how many CB/S the Lions play most of the time. Davis and Kennard are hard to find anything to complain about back there, and Tavai was excellent for a green rookie that we are looking forward to more of. I fell like those 3 in a 4-3 would take at least 2/3 of the starting spots. Reeves-Maybin is a special teams ace. Levy had yet to have his breakout year, and then went on to not a whole lot later. I would find anyone hard pressed to say that LB is not an upgrade to the 2009 squad, if not a significant upgrade.

2009 - CB: (6) Henry, Buchanon, King, James, McCauley and Hobbs– Roberson made a good case to stick, but was injured and hidden on IR for next season. Time to heal, followed by another full offseason should lead to good things if he continues to progress like he did this year. Robinson finally gets the axe, and 6 is a lot of CB to carry when they are this…caliber. Less bodies, more talent next ifseason anyone??(edited last line for emphasis - At least I wasn't totally delusional about the roster)
2019 - CB: (7) Slay, Coleman, Rashaan Melvin, Mike Ford, Dee Virgin, Jamal Agnew, Amani Oruwarlye. Raise your hand and fight me if you don't think that Mike Ford and Rashaan Melvin would have been big upgrades at starting CB on that 2009 team. Anyone? Yeah. The secondary has come that far. Amani a more developmental guy and Agnew mostly a returner. Even Dee Virgin would have been an upgrade to the 2009 CB crew IMO. Bottom better and no one even close to Coleman, much less in the same stratosphere as Slay. What would we have given to get one of the top 10, poss top 5 CB in the league back then? Out expectations have sure changed!

2009 - S: (4) Delmas, Manuel, Simpson, Pearson — Not a star-studded S position, but hopefully IF… Stu played well for the most part in the preseason, but trading for Simpson bumped him. Likely #1 on the call list if injury hits.
2019 - S: (6) Diggs, Walker, Wilson, Killebrew, Harris, Moore. Delmas was decent when healthy. But was he better than Wilson, our 3rd S? he was more on pace with Killebrew, who is more a hybrid LB/S and we're talking about the 4th S on the current roster. Now look up there after Delmas. Repent, you always called for Safeties year in, year out, every year. Never argued the importance with you (one of the few things we agree on). The difference here is just profoundly unimaginable... and Harris or Moore would easily beat out any of the 3 guys who were behind Delmas on the depth chart...


2009 - ST: (3) LS Muhlbach, P Harris, K Hanson — the only three people who could feel secure throughout training camp, they are also 3 of the best in the biz at their respective positions.
2019 - ST: (3) LS Muhlbach, P Martin, K Prater -- I'll still hold to 3 of the best at their position, including the seemingly ageless he of the OCD snapper, most professional specialist in the league in that regard, multi-time probowler. This one is a push, though I think Martin is a better punter than Harris but that is a quibble...

And there you have it. Night and Day? I don't even think that is a big enough difference... The talent level at every position group is deeper and more talented -- in many cases, not even close. The 2019 Lions depth at OL, LB, DT, DE, S, and CB would all be better than the 2009 starters no question.

Next time you feel like taking swipes at 2-1-1, look back at that roster we claimed was full of great backups... and realize, yeah it was. WAS. Not anymore. Thank you Mr. Quinn.

TBH Coaching is a big part as well. Its the bye week lets dive in and discuss!!

Lions Congregation: Reflections

Welcome once again to the Lions Congregation! Bloggers from across the Savanna congregate to bring you their thoughts on the Lions. Have a question? Email lionscongregation@yahoo.com

Al at The Wayne Fontes Experience

1. What was your favorite game of the season to watch?

I could say it was the win over the Chiefs, as I realized I was watching a playoff contender destroy a 2010 playoff team. I was tempted to say the victory over the Broncos in Denver, just because of the destruction of TEBOW. I could go with one of the ridiculous comeback wins over the Vikings, Cowboys, Panthers and Raiders, and it wouldn't raise anyone's eyebrows. 

But I have to go with the victory over the Chargers, for one reason only. The win clinched a spot in the playoffs for the first time in 12 years (though it felt more like 12 decades). The Lions were at home, the offense was clicking, Matthew Stafford was playing the elite QB we all hoped he'd become, the defense had turned things around (for a couple of weeks, anyway) and no one wanted to see them have to win in Green Bay in order to make the playoffs. So going into the game it just felt as if the result was fait accompli. The Lions were going to win.

Despite the Chargers having a talented team, the game wasn't really in question and the team got to celebrate with a formerly suffering, now deliriously happy, fan base. All was well in the world for a few hours. 

You cannot ask from more than that from a victory.

2. What were your 3 favorite plays of the season?

3.  Late in the Chargers win, Cliff Avril picked off Phillip Rivers and strolled into the end zone from 4 yards out for spectacular pick 6. The leaping, one-handed interception set off a huge celebration, as the score essentially cliched a playoff spot.

2.  My favorite offensive play of the season was Calvin Johnson catching a 6-yard touchdown pass from Matthew Stafford with 39 seconds left against the Raiders, finishing off a beyond clutch 98-yard drive. The hopes and dreams of a playoff season were on the line, and the Lions came through in a way we couldn't have imagined a few years ago. All I could do was channel Vin Scully and say, "I can't believe what I just saw!"

1. This is my favorite play of the season, period. The Lions are in Oakland, up by one with under0:20 left. The Raiders are driving, kicker Sebastian Janikowski is warming up his All-Pro leg on the sidelines. Carson Palmer drops back to pass, and every fan on the planet thinks the Raiders will drive deep enough into Lions' territory to give Janikowski a very reasonable shot at a game winning field goal. In Jankowski's case, anything within 55 yards can be considered reasonable. 

But Avril roars in from left end, drops an axe handle on the quarterback (nearly forcing a fumble) and sacks Palmer with 0:13 on the clock. The Raiders run one more play (an incomplete pass) and ultimately settle for a 65 yard field goal attempt, which Ndamukong Suh blocks. Lions win, have a 9-5 record and get an inside track on a playoff spot! 

If Avril doesn't sack Palmer, all sort of bad things happen. Janikowski is likely trying a kick that's at least 10 yards shorter. He doesn't have to drill the ball low to get max distance, making it that much harder to block. With that in mind, odds are he makes the kick, beating the Lions. How does the season plays out if the Lions don't win the game? I'm thinking the season just may have ended badly. But it didn't, much in thanks Avril's game saving sack

NetRat at NetRat Detroit Lions Blog

1. What was your favorite game of the season to watch?

1.  I enjoyed all the Lions games this year.  My favorite though has to be Christmas Eve against the Chargers when they sealed their playoff spot.  Good opponent, pressures on, and the Lions win the game playing hard.  Bodes well for the future.

 

2. What were your 3 favorite plays of the season?

2.  My 3 favorite plays?  Holy cow, that's not an easy question.  Avril's TD was definitely one of them.  Suh just barely getting a piece of the attempted field goal at the end of the Oakland game to save the win (and prevent a record setting field goal for distance) is another.  The rest are all a blur... so many to choose from.  Stafford shattered the TD record by any Lions QB ever, CJ and Pettigrew broke records too, then there's the comebacks and the total destruction of the Bronco's... my 3rd favorite play then has to be a tie between roughly 231 other plays.

Blades Boyd, ROTL Contributor

1. What was your favorite game of the season to watch?

With so many great games this, I'm going to go out of the box here a little and say it was the second Vikings-Lions matchup played at Ford Field. This game had everything from int's returned for TD's, sacks and big plays. But the real reason I choose this game is because it was when I finally began to accept this isn't the "same old lions."  Everything about this game was hinting the lions would blow the big lead and when the Vikes were marching at the end of the game, I was 100% sure the Lions would blow it. When the Lions stopped them and won that game, I had this immense feeling of relief and joy. I was finally able to say, "maybe these aren't the same old Lions!!!" 

2. What were your 3 favorite plays of the season?

2. #3- Bobby Carpenter's pick 6 vs Dallas. Just an unreal play. 

   #2- Titus Young diving grab against the Chiefs. A play that most people might overlook but it was on a 3rd and 24, and Stafford threw a rope to Young who made a diving catch in double coverage for the first down. In only his second game, you could see the potential. I can't wait to see this kid in another two years. He's going to be a good one if he keeps his head on straight.

 #1. Calvin Johnson's catch against Dallas. Don't think I need to say much else.

Joshua, DetFan1979 of ROTL

1. What was your favorite game of the season to watch?

There were so many outstanding games this season that I had a very hard time deciding. There was more exceptional Detroit Lions Football played this season than in the last decade!  I guess, in the end I'll have to go with the Chiefs game early in the season.  

Thinking back to the end of the infamous 0-16 season (0-whatever according to Leslie Frazier) many fans, myself included were calling for Scott Pioli to "save" the franchise.  It was sweet, then, to see the Lions rip apart an inferior opponent -- and knowing that it was the Lions on the path to a future of sustained playoff appearances while the Chiefs were heading back to the drawing board.  How many times had I seen this before -- only it was always the Lions on the losing end.  Not. Any. More. 

It was a great feeling. 

2. What were your 3 favorite plays of the season?

Three? Just three? After this season? Talk about Herculean.  

#3.  Jahvid Best 88 yard touchdown run versus Chicago.  After how many times I've seen plays like that break open a game against the Lions it was beyond satisfying to see the Lions do it for a change. 

#2.  Bobby Carpenter pick-6 versus Dallas.  It was an amazing play just to get the pick, but what was just as impressive was how the rest of the defense suddenly came alive and blocked down on the offense, opening the lane into the end zone.  It was my favorite comeback win of the season (and there were plenty)

#1.  Calvin Johnson's final second TD catch in the Oakland game.  It wasn't so much the play itself as what it embodied. A surgical, determined comeback with time speeding away on the play clock - and closing the deal.  This was no Marcus Pollard slide for a non-TD and yet another moral victory. It was Matthew Stafford to Calvin Johnson for the win -- and a preview of the bright future of the best WR in football catching passes from one of the best young QB's in the game.  And they are both Detroit Lions!

Conclusion

Thank you once again for joining the Lions Congregation! Normally appearing every Friday this week was late because someone forgot to hit the publish button. See you again on Friday!!

Lions Congregation: Playoff Wrap Up

Since we have a whole ifseason ahead of us to look back, the congregation is this week taking a look at a couple of questions that kept cropping up about the playoff loss to New Orleans.  Then, we debate reader J. Berger's question of who is our 2011 Lions MVP.  


For those new to this page, the Lions Congregation is a collection of Lions Bloggers (some past, some present) from around the web looking at issues and questions about our Detroit Lions - each from their own unique perspective.  Have a question or topic?  Email the Lions Congregation!


The Panel:


Al of The Wayne Fontes Experience
NetRat of The NetRat Detroit Lions site and blog (also our resident capologist)
Zac of The Sidelion Report
Jeff - Special Guest and founder of the Lions Congregation
Blades Boyd - founding member and resident contrarian at Roar of the Lions
Joshua aka DetFan1979 - Your humble host at Roar of the Lions


Due to some readers who indicated that the congregation answers ran together too easily, I am going to give each author their own section with all three of their answers lumped together this week, versus gathering all the panelists' responses by question.  Please let me know which format you prefer!  


Al of The Wayne Fontes Experience

1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

I'm not going to get on Schwartz's case over the use/non-use of challenges. Why? Because the whole damn replay system is broken. Hell, the rules are broken to the point where I don't know what is or isn't a fumble or a touchdown any more. 

How an NFL head coach can and can't use challenges is ridiculous. A play called a touchdown receives an automatic booth review. If the same play isn't called a touchdown, it can't be reviewed without a challenge. Uh...WHAT? That is rule making at it's most, well, idiotic.

NFL coaches shouldn't have to depend upon the whims of the TV networks in order to get a good enough view to determine if a challenge is a good idea. And that's just what happened, especially on the worst spot ever. The refs kept the game moving, not allowing Schwartz time to make an informed decision...or even an educated guess.

Say the play in question was the Saints getting a 1st down, but Schwartz challenging what was a correct spot despite not having concrete evidence to the contrary. We'd be getting out the torches and pitchforks. Do you really want the head coach in a playoff game making half-assed challenges?

Anyone saying Schwartz should have thrown the challenge flag isn't being fair. On the 2 plays mentioned, Schwartz was caught between a rock and a hard place. The rock being a specious challenge system and the hard place incompetent refereeing.

2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

When the play first happened, I was damned upset. How the Saints would have played when 21-7 down would have differed compared to 14-7. The Saints would have been back on their heels. But thinking about it, I don't think the Lions win even if they were given the TD. The Saints are that damn good. The score would have looked a little better in the history books, nothing more. 

If I'm going to throw blame around (and why the Hell not?), once again fingers must be pointed at incompetent refereeing. Why the whistle was blown is beyond me. You would think referees would not blow a play dead if there is any chance the ball could still be in play. In this case, it was cut and dry. There was a very good possibility the ball was live. Yet the refs still blew it...the whistle and the ruling.

3. Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?

Stephen Tulloch is unquestionably the defensive MVP. The Lions best get him signed to a multi-year deal, post haste. But I digress...

To answer the question; as good as Megatron was, and he was great, Matthew Stafford was better. 

Yes, Calvin Johnson's numbers were All-Pro worthy. But Stafford's numbers were at historic levels. Levels we couldn't have imagined, let alone seen, as Lions fans. Stafford shattered every Lions' single season passing record. He became only the 4th quarterback in NFL history to throw for more than 5000 yards. Don't forget leading 4 comebacks from 13 or more points down, something which has never been done in NFL history. 

The Lions made the playoffs because Stafford played at an elite level. Period. If he doesn't, the Lions aren't in 

New Orleans last weekend. 

Give Matthew Stafford the team MVP. 

NetRat of The NetRat Detroit Lions site and blog 

1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

I don't know who is in charge of telling the coaching staff to challenge, I assume there is someone who's job it is to quickly check the play for that kind of thing.  We get the benefit of super slow-mo replay and hindsight (as we dwell on things) but with whatever tools the Lions have they might've been unsure at the time if a challenge was winnable or they might have been saving them for something really big later (if needed).  As for the forward progress thing, at the time I thought first down... it was only later that I heard it might not have been.

2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

 The inadvertent whistle was par for the year in officiating.  The Lions were lucky to get possession at all (and then did nothing with it).  I've seen them whistle a play dead and not allow the turnover.  The officiating that affected the game the most were the non-calls on holding by the O-Lines.  When your entire defense is predicated on interior pass rush and the OLine can hold as much as they want you have effectively disabled the defense and made it useless.  Letting the players play backfired for the Lions in that game.

3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?

My vote for the 2011 Lions MVP is Matt Stafford.  Broke the Lions yardage record, TD record, passing attempts record and pass completions record... and is only the 4th QB in the history of the NFL to reach 5,000 yards in a single season.  The Lions have been around a long time and this was a serious uptick in the record books.  This record may or may not ever be broken, but if it is, it'll probably be by Matt Stafford (in some future year).

Zac of The Sidelion Report

1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

-Since each team get's two maybe it would have been worth challenging either of those plays but I think they would have been low percentage challenges. Certain things have a tendency to be overblown in the wake of a loss and I think that is the case here. With the recent challenge history in mind (Green Bay), I can see why Schwartz would want to hold on to the red flag rather than taking a low percentage flier on a play in the middle of the field.

2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

-The fan in me hated seeing that opportunity lost as a result of an inadvertent whistle but I don't believe a fumble return for a touchdown would have changed the outcome of the game. There are just too many things the Lions did poorly that they did have control over to lay much blame on the officials; namely, the defense's inability to force a punt. The possibility that it would have changed the tone of the game only holds water if one believes the defense could have gotten a few stops and the Lions could have run the ball effectively. There was no evidence in that game to suggest that either would have happened.

3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?

-It's easily Matthew Stafford. Of the three I immediately boil it down to a choice between Stafford and Johnson and decided based on the "V" in MVP. While Megatron was certainly valuable in terms of the success of the offense, it was Stafford who had the noticeable statistical disparity between wins and losses. To me, the definition of "valuable" ultimately comes down to wins and losses and there was no Lion whose performance determined wins and losses more than Matthew Stafford. Considering the Lions won more than they lost, Stafford gets the nod as team MVP.

Jeff - Special Guest and founder of the Lions Congregation

1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

Yes, both of those plays should have been challenged. The Brees first down called back could have been a momentum changer for us. I know he only had two flags but could have used on there for sure.

2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

Huge impact. Lions would have scored on that play, putting them up 21-7. Another momentum changer that could have won us the game. The overall officiating this season was abysmal, many bad calls, no calls and the refs looked like they didn’t know all the rules all season. Didn’t help with the image the Lions were starting to get with the personal fouls and it seemed like they were calling stuff on the Lions and favoring the opposition, not calling same type penalties on them.

3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?

I have to go with Stafford. He played exceptionally well, garnering over 5k yards and setting many Lions records. He definitely played like a franchise QB, just what he was drafted for. Can’t wait to see how improvements made this year helps him in the future. They need to resign CJ badly (PAY THE MAN!) and get other weapons for him. Best and Leshoure coming back and, hopefully, keeping K-Smith will help greatly.

Blades Boyd - founding member & resident contrarian 

1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

Let me start by saying even if Schwartz did challenge and win, I don't think it would have mattered. Saints still would have won because they pretty much went for it and got it every time they had a 4th down.

That being said, there is absolutely no doubt those plays should have been challenged and yes Schwartz messes up big time by not doing so. But should he criticized for it??? Not at all. Keep in mind, he's done something that a lot of REALLY good coaches couldn't do (Bobby Ross and Mooch to name a few) and that's get the Lions back to the playoffs and have a winning season. Schwartz will learn from this game and next time, I'm sure you will see a challenge flag tossed on those plays. 

If any coach needs to be questioned it's Gunther Cunningham. I have not liked his play calling all season and he really got exposed the last few weeks. He blitzed a total of four times in the game which result in the Willie Young forced fumble, one incompletion and one hurry. The rest of the game he sat back and while the Saints were in max protection, Breed just picked them apart. Gunther has really showed his age this season and is beginning to get out of touch with the changing NFL. Unfortunately, he's Schwartz's mentor and will be stuck with him for a while. (I wish they'd go after Steve Spagnola)

2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

Like I said before, I don't think any play had a major impact on the game. Say the lions had an extra 14 points in the game, they still lose. Sorry to be that straight forward about it but it is just that simple.

3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?

As good of a season Stafford had, Calvin is the MVP. In my opinion, we probably still would have made the playoffs without Stafford. There isn't a chance we make the playoffs without Calvin. I know some people disagree with me but look at the stats. During the 5-0 run, CJ had a touchdown in every game and close to 100 yards. During the up and down stretch in the middle of the season? Calvin wasn't scoring and was averaging 68.5 yards a game. At the end of the season when we were winning again, he averaged over 100 yards a game and over a TD a game. That in itself proves to me anyway, he should get some votes for league MVP, not just the Lions MVP.

Joshua aka DetFan1979 - Your humble host at Roar of the Lions

1. While many have questioned various aspects of coaching in the game, how about Jim Schwartz and his non-challenges? Specifically, the egregious spot on 3rd and 11, as well as whether Brees was stopped by forward progress since he pulled the ball back on his own - and fumbled it while doing so to boot. Should he have challenged either or both of these?

Based on how the officials were calling the game, I don't think that either call would have been overturned, and obviously neither did Jim Schwartz.  The crew calling the game was "letting 'em play" and those calls were just part of it.  

I will say, that whole attitude cost the Lions ANY chance they had of winning the game against New Orleans.  The Saints defense is based around the blitz -- so not calling offensive holding really had little to no impact on how they played the game. 

For the Lions, however, it was the exact opposite.  They count on the skills and aggressiveness of their front four to create pressure on the quarterback.  That is impossible if the offensive line is allowed to hold as egregiously as it was in that playoff game.  So while the ref's may have been "letting players be players" in this case it created a huge disadvantage for a Lions team that already needed a near perfect game under normal circumstances to pull out a win. 

2. How much of an impact do you feel the "inadvertent whistle" negating a fumble return TD was both on the tone and final outcome of the game?

Crazy enough, this stupid whistle was the ONE time all game the referees did NOT let the players play it out -- and this is the one time in the game it would have been advantage Lions.  

First off, let me be clear: With how the game was being called (see above answer) and how well New Orleans' offense was playing I do not think that this call would have effected the outcome of the game.  

I do, however, feel that it would have dramatically changed the "story" of the game.  Themes coming out of the game are how the Lions didn't turn either turnover into points -- they did, but they were essentially taken away.  I also feel the emotional hit to the Lions defense and corresponding scare and then boost to New Orleans is what allowed the Saints to pull away like they did.  

If the Saints were up by 3 vs 10 later in the game -- or 10 vs 17 -- then Stafford likely doesn't have at least one of the INT's as he was really pressing knowing they didn't have time.  I still think they try the onside just the same, and that the Saints win a shoot out -- it just would have been a much closer shootout that would have answered more questions about the Lions and raised more questions about the Saints.  

As it was, I haven't seen a defense fielded this season that I truly feel would have been able to stop New Orleans on Saturday.  Matthew Stafford was playing at an elite level making some mind boggling throws.  Unfortunately, Drew Brees was playing a level above that whatever you want to call it, and some of his throws were enough to make you hit replay about 5 times on the DVR just to be sure what you were seeing happened.  

3. From J Berger: Who is your 2011 Lions MVP - Stafford, Johnson or Tulloch?

All three of these players certainly had a huge impact on 2011.  The way I look at it is what is the drop-off to that player's backup, and how much would it have effected their win-loss record.  While Tulloch defintely filled the middle far better than anyone we've seen in the last 8 years (Paris Lenon anyone?) I feel like maybe a one game swing without him.  

Calvin Johnson had one of the truly great seasons for a wide receiver in the NFL ever.  Period.  However, he was essentially healthy until the last couple of weeks -- when he still put up over 200 yards/game in the finale and playoffs.  

This brings me to Stafford.  When he was healthy at the start of the season and the end of the season the Lions offense was beyond humming -- it was a finely tuned machine of point scoring on par with Green Bay, New Orleans, and New England.  When his finger was broken mid-season, the whole team became more inconsistent.  

Basically, as goes Stafford so goes the Lions -- for good or ill.  For me, this makes him the MVP even more than his numerous and now well documented records he broke this season.  

Wrap-Up

Thank you for joining us once again!  The Lions Congregation will be posted Friday evenings once again each week.  So join us reading, commenting, or sending us questions to the lionscongregation@yahoo.com -- or hopefully, all three!!

Do you agree with the panelists?  Disagree? Let us know!

Playoff Food

The Next Generation

> My Nephew, DetFan2011, is also excited for the Detroit Lions playoff game tonight!
>